Have you ever determined whether you are better at completing tasks in the morning or evening? Do you prefer starting a new project or opening something new, or do you prefer finishing projects and seeing things through to the end? These are questions Gretchen Rubin helps readers answer in the book Better Than Before: Mastering the Habits of Our Everyday Lives. Tyler Meuwissen joins Brandon Laws for this episode to discuss the ideas in Better Than Before about building, sustaining, and mastering habits of our personal and professional lives.

 
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Brandon: Welcome to the HR for Small Business podcast, this is your host Brandon Laws. Before we get to our guest today I wanted to mention that we’re always looking for reviews on iTunes so people like yourself can find the podcast. We definitely love reviews on iTunes if you have a few seconds to tell us how we’re doing. You can also email us at info@xeniumhr.com. We’re always looking for your feedback about the podcast, about future topics—it’s about you, it’s about what you want to learn—so feel free to reach out that way. I’m also on Twitter @BrandonLaws and you can reach out to me that way directly.
And to our guest, Tyler Meuwissen; he’s a returning guest.
Tyler: Yes, yes, back again!
Brandon: Back again, and the reason you’re back is we’re going to talk book club.
Tyler: Book club, book club!
Brandon: For those of you who maybe this is your first time downloading the podcast and listening, we have an internal book club at Xenium. About every 45 days, would you say, Tyler, we meet and discuss?
Meuwissen, Tyler - circleTyler: Yeah that sounds about right, a month and a half. Every so often, yeah.
Brandon: A lot of us would like to do it monthly, I think.
Tyler: Sure, oh yeah.
Brandon: It’s a lot of fun. What we basically do is our company buys books for the employees and then about 45 days to two months out we try to schedule a discussion. We converse about a book and it’s usually done over coffee or happy hour. It’s a lot of fun, it’s a good way to mingle with your coworkers. And from a culture standpoint you sort of get to chat with people you normally wouldn’t.
The book that we chose this time is called Better Than Before: Mastering the Habits of our Everyday Lives. This is written by Gretchen Rubin and for those that maybe have picked up her previous book that was really popular, The Happiness Project. Did you ever read that?
Tyler: Didn’t read that. I heard about it, haven’t read it though.
Brandon: I haven’t either. I know a lot of people in the organization here have read it and they love that book. And then we picked up Better Than Before, which is really a way to talk about habits and how to build them and whatnot.
Let’s dive into the book and chat about the book and what we thought of it. First, before we dive into the parts of the book that maybe we are critical of or that we got a lot from, let’s talk about just the style in general. What did you think of the style? It’s different, right?
Tyler: It is different. I don’t know, it was kind of—I’ve read a lot of psychology books, Malcom Gladwell, all that stuff. It kind of comes off as kind of like a preachier kind of prose. It’s kind of talking at you more than a conversation that’s ongoing or some objective discussion points to go for. It’s more fluid in that way. It’s an interesting take, I’m curious to hear how you liked the writing style. I wasn’t too big on it.
Brandon: I’ve got to be fully transparent, so I read this on a new feature that the Kindle Fire has, it’s called “Word Runner.” It basically, for those who maybe don’t know what it is, on a Kindle Fire they have this new operating system that has an option where you can use the Word Runner feature. It basically flashes words up on a per minute basis. So this one I read that way. I was trying to get through it pretty fast, but I also wanted to just capture the essence of the book. What I got from it in doing the speed reading, is that she’s very snarky. The preachiness, yeah, it comes through a little bit.
I kind of felt like the first part of the book, maybe the first few chapters, were very much process-oriented. We’ll dive into it, but she talks about the four tendencies and distinction.
Tyler: The pillars of habits, yeah.
Brandon: So the very first part of the book is very structured and it’s very much, here’s how you could develop and sustain habits.
Tyler: Which I liked!
Brandon: Which was great! And for most people, when the discussions came out, is that you could probably stop right there. But the rest of the book was where the snarkiness came in. I felt like her casual, maybe preachy—I mean, her writing style was fun. It was engaging and I loved it because it was supported from her point of view. It’s very much her and what she has done and some other examples. But it supported the rest of the book.
Tyler: You know, I agree with that. With these books I tend to like the more objective, laid out—that’s how I can learn. But I guess for a lot of people they could find that kind of casual speaking and relating to you on that kind of level interesting and more informative. Because it can kind of relate and you’re not always going by an objective, textbook overview of how to develop habits—that’s kind of been done before.
Brandon: It has and I wanted to bring that up because I have read a book like that, it’s called The Power of Habit. Fantastic book, but it’s so dry in comparison to this. It’s very psychologically based, scientific, there’s case studies. It’s just written so dryly, but it’s very good—I want to get that across. But this book is so different.
Tyler: Yeah, and I think that’s probably what she was going for, the author. Trying to mix it up a little bit. Trying to not be as common as other principle books, these objective, textbook style psych books. I think she was trying to be a little bit cutting edge in terms of just let me talk to you about my experiences and what’s working for me and that type of scenario.
Brandon: We usually wait until the end to talk about our ratings of the book, but I wanted to just tell you—and I think I mentioned this in our discussion—that this is one of my favorite books of the year.
Tyler: Really? Wow.
Tyler & Brandon-1Brandon: We’re not that far into the year, but even if I go back 12 months, I would say this is in the top 3.
Tyler: Wow!
Brandon: It was that impactful for me. I really like reading books on habits and personal growth and all those sorts of things, and this book really resonated with me. And it’s funny because some of you guys rolled your eyes at me when I said that.
Tyler: That’s what I think is so great about the book club that we have. We can get a lot of differing perspectives. And you weren’t alone; a lot of people in the discussion liked the book a lot. So I think it kind of builds a different perspective for each person. I like that the book club does that. The book definitely, for some, it’s groundbreaking and they like it and enjoy it a lot. For others it’s like I’ve heard that before. And it’s hard to adapt those practices.
Brandon: Totally. And I think for this type of book it’s a self-awareness check. That’s the way I look at this, because I read a lot of varying books and I try to get as many ideas as I can. There are some people who don’t pick up books as often. If they picked up this, I would worry that they’d go, Okay, I’m going to follow this precisely, here’s a blueprint for how to build habits. The way I looked at it was, I already sort of have my habits ingrained in me, and I’m like, and we’ll talk about it in a second, but the tendencies and the distinctions—now I know where I fall on the spectrum. And then here are some other ways to build, replace, sustain the habits that I want to keep or replace, she gave a lot of good examples of how to do that. And that’s what I loved about this book.
Tyler: That’s true, that’s true. As we’ll get to it later, being held into those four different categories, I don’t know, I don’t think we’re all black and white into Upholders and Rebels and the others.
Brandon: Let’s talk about that. That’s a good segue, Tyler. The four tendencies—do you want to go through those real quick?
Tyler: Yeah! So, we have the Upholders who respond readily to both outer expectations and inner expectations.
Brandon: So, an example of that would be that they hold themselves accountable to their own goals or habits or whatever. And then if other people drop goals, habits, tasks, whatever, they also meet the requirements of those people as well. So they meet both.
Tyler: So then we go to the Questioners. They question all expectations and will meet expectations only if it’s justified. I kind of fall into that category because I tend to question everything.
Brandon: But you’re a borderline Rebel.
Tyler: I am a borderline Rebel! I’m in the moment, you know, if I feel like it it’s going to happen. Which brings us to another one—Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner. And Obligers is the last one, which responds readily to outward expectations but struggle to meet inner expectations.
Brandon: That’s an interesting one because you’re making everyone else happy but you’re not taking care of yourself and your habits or your needs. That’s an interesting one. I think a lot of the people in the discussion said that they were Obligers.
Tyler: Yeah!  I mean, I wonder if it’s a work thing.
Brandon: I know why, they say that because they’re service-oriented. They take care of their clients and their coworkers first before themselves.
Tyler: That’s a great point. We are in the service industry so we’re trying to provide for our clients. So I could definitely see them being Obligers. But then at the same time, work’s 9-5. So whatever’s going on outside of work.
Brandon: Is it 9-5? [laughing]
Tyler: It varies, but I mean, the point is at the end of the day you’re responsible for your inner development. So you can’t always hold work to be that solid.
Brandon: So those four tendencies were sort of like a self-check, like where do I fall on this? And then she goes into the distinctions. What were some of those? And you don’t have to go over all of them, because there were a lot! But again, it was more of a self-check thing, like what are your tendencies of the habits?
Tyler:  Yeah, so there was the Lark or Owl.
Brandon: What does that mean?
Tyler: A Lark was a morning person and an Owl’s a night person.
Brandon: Meaning, if you’re going to accomplish something better in the morning or not?
Tyler: Yes, you do better in the morning or you do more at night. The Marathoner, so you work at a slow, steady pace.
Brandon: And you’re in it for the long haul.
Tyler: Longer term. Sprinter, quick bursts of intense effort.
Brandon: Is that you?
Tyler: Yeah, I’d probably say I’m more of a Sprinter.  And then the Procrastinator, finish only when they’re at a deadline. To be truthful, that’s kind of a little bit me, too.
Brandon: I definitely was that in school!
Mentorship - Brandon and TylerTyler: Yeah, some things I definitely have to work, I push it toward the end of the deadline. I definitely need to develop a better habit on that. And then there’s the Underbuyer, hate to shop and buy. The Overbuyer, love to shop and buy. Simplicity Lover, Abundance Lover, Finisher, Opener.
Brandon: That’s a good one, let’s stop there for a second. The Finisher and Opener, the examples in the book and I think in our discussion, we talked about if you’re going to get every ounce of toothpaste out of the toothpaste container or do you just open up a new one? I think that example goes to just about anything. Do you like to start with new stuff all the time or are you seeing projects through?
Tyler: Yeah! I mean, I’m probably more of a mixture I’d say, probably I lean more toward an Opener.  I don’t know, I feel like I’m more on the creative side and like to do a lot of creative things. I feel like I have a lot of ideas. I can start these ideas but I don’t necessarily finish those through. It’s also with forming habits. I start habits or try to form habits and I kind of fall back.
Brandon: It’s interesting, because those tendencies and those distinctions, and you just went over some of them, but I think if you’re reading the book and you get through that first part, it’s sort of a map. It’s like an assessment, kind of like the DISC assessment, it’s a personality assessment. Where do I fall in the spectrum of completing projects, doing tasks, which ultimately impacts your habits long term? And I think those are nice. You can sort of map it out, like, okay, I’m an Upholder, I’m a Lark, I’m an Underbuyer, I’m a Familiarity Lover, I’m an Opener, those sorts of things. You just sort of map out how you are and then the Pillars of Habit, she goes into that. It’s the Monitoring, Foundation, Scheduling, and Accountability. Those are the four pillars. And she gives prime examples of each of those things. I wanted to dive into the Pillars and spend the rest of our time talking about those Pillars because that was the part of the book I got the most out of.
For example, Monitoring. It’s basically measuring your habits. Personal examples of the measuring part of monitoring was, okay, my goals for the year: I want to read 35 books. How am I going to measure that? Do I have a spreadsheet? Goodreads is a social media app and it allows me to easily, on my phone, monitor or complete the books as I read them, or even track my progress. So by the end of the year I’m going to know exactly how many books I read, if I use the app regularly. And I think for the measurement, FitBit’s the same way, or MyFitnessPal. Those wearables and those sorts of things. So whether it’s fitness or professional development related, if you have the ability to measure your habits and move toward your goals, I think you’re more likely to reach the goals. Because you’re always looking at a sort of dashboard or whatever.
Tyler: You get a sort of snapshot of how you’re doing, too. You can see the progress. And I think people need to see progression toward their goals in order to keep going and fulfill that strategy, that goal they need.
For the Pillars, I was kind of speaking to you earlier about this. Really, Monitoring is the only one I stay true to. And I feel, I don’t know, maybe this is the analysis in me, all that measuring, I like that. I enjoy doing that. So I think that’s what kind of keeps me in that pillar. But everything else, foundation, I’m sad to say I don’t really do! I don’t really get enough sleep, I don’t eat the way I should or drink the way I should. I don’t move around or probably exercise as much as I should, which definitely are some goals I should be making.
And scheduling, as much as I say Oh I’m going to commit to that! It’s on the schedule, I’m going to commit! Sometimes when it comes to that timeframe, I kinda push or move it around.
Brandon: I’m with you! The Foundation, yeah, I agree with you that everybody needs a Foundation.
Tyler: I think it’s more that everybody feels that way.
Brandon: Yeah, so I’d agree with you. That wasn’t one of the most profound parts of the Pillars. The Scheduling was, because I’m sitting here looking at it like, okay, I use Outlook calendar, Google calendars for basically everything. It’s on my phone and my work computer and it syncs across all that. So I’m like, If I put it on the calendar, am I going to do it? And you know, there’s some things that, yeah, absolutely! But there’s also life things that happen, we have two young kids at home, meetings or emergencies happen throughout the day. So if it’s on the calendar, what’s to stop me from dismissing it or snoozing it?
Tyler: Exactly.
Brandon: I think the Scheduling is a really good Pillar, especially if you have a pretty open calendar, like Okay, it’s 6am, I’m working out! 7-8, that’s my professional development time. I’m reading books or doing whatever. Meditating, journaling, whatever it is that you want to develop for that goal. So if you have a kind of open schedule and flexibility, I think the Scheduling works a lot better. But for people with crazy lives and family, I don’t know if it’s realistic.
Tyler: Yeah, I definitely don’t think it’s realistic. It’s hard, to try to use that isn’t just an excuse. It’s true. I think that benefits people who have large chunks of time where they can say, Okay, between 6 and 9 pm I can do that workout or I can read that book or read pages of that book. It’s hard for people who have very dynamic lives where something can just happen at the drop of a hat to stick true to a schedule. I definitely hear your point on that.
Brandon: So let’s wrap up with talking about the Accountability, because I think this pillar is actually the most profound. Monitoring, Foundation, Scheduling, that’s all like sort of the self, internal—it’s all you. The Accountability Pillar an interesting one because this, to me, is an external one. It’s sort of like, if you don’t reach your task or goal or whatever it is and you don’t sustain that habit, who’s holding you accountable? I think if you have a buddy or coworkers or your family and they know about your goals that you’re trying to reach and you publicize it, I think you’re more likely to be embarrassed or feel the repercussions a little bit when you don’t reach that.
Tyler: To that point, too, I’m glad you mentioned that—I don’t think it can just be anybody.
Brandon: I don’t think so either. It’s got to be somebody that’s aligned with your goals.
Tyler: Or tied to you closely enough that you mentioned before. If I don’t do this, they’re going to let me know it and hold me accountable. I might feel a reaction to that.
Brandon: Here’s an example. We did the walking challenge last year. You managed that. How we structured it was basically we set a goal and most people had FitBits to track their steps. Then by the end of the week, they submitted their steps and they list their goal right next to it. So they sort of feel that embarrassment. Also, they have their teammates that are trying to encourage them to step more. The accountability piece, I think, is huge. It’s one of those things that if you can sort of align yourselves with people who are trying to reach similar goals and they actually care about the outcome, that’s huge!
Tyler: And it doesn’t have to be a negative thing or that they’re going to reprimand you, they can also offer encouragement, constructive feedback. I don’t think you’re going to get that from some random acquaintance you met or some coworker you don’t really hang out with that much or talk with that much. It has to be someone you’re close to.
Brandon Laws - podcastBrandon: Absolutely. The other piece of accountability, which is sort of an internal one, was the pairing. Do you remember that part? For me, I was like, Gosh, there are some things in my life that you could pair so that when you’re doing one thing, you’re doing the other. It sustains a good habit.
Here’s an example for you. I’m a huge Portland Trailblazers fan. NBA, for those who don’t really follow them. Those games are what, 2.5 hours, 3 hours? I’m watching every game, every second. So why not pair it with exercise? Every time I watch a Portland Trailblazers game, I have to be doing push-ups, sit-ups, running in place, stretching, or whatever needed to be done, and I have to do it for the majority of the game or during timeouts or whatever. So I’m pairing a habit that I want to build with something I already do. So that was my example, I don’t know if you have any you could come up with or that you’ve heard?
Tyler: One thing that I’ve done a little bit in the past just recently, so I have a 7-month old son. I’ve been reading all these books that say that at this age you should talk to them and speak to them so they can get the words and dictation and start hearing your voice. I paired that with reading books, with reading this book for instance, and other books, fiction books. Nothing too crazy, but at 7 months old, they’re not going to understand the whole meanings behind the words. It’s just the words themselves and hearing your voice. That’s a development for him and a development for me at the same time, so it’s both.
Brandon: You’re going to have a baby genius.
Tyler: We’ll see, I’m not reading Shakespeare to him!
Brandon: Might as well start now!
Tyler: Exactly!
Brandon: So just on the accountability piece, there’s a quote that I pulled from the book that I absolutely love, it’s toward the end. She said, “Habits multiply, for better or for worse, within individuals. They also spread from one person to another.” I think that’s so true! As people are exercising, they’re going out and walking, they’re books and they’re publishing on Goodreads and whatnot, that spreads like wildfire. People are like, Pfft, Tyler’s reading 40 books a year? Maybe I should start reading! I think it builds good habits.
Tyler: It does! And you kind of did that to me when you were starting your book challenge. You were like, I’m going to read 25 books. And then I go, Well, if Brandon’s reading 25 books, I want to start making a goal for reading books. So I went on Goodreads and set a 20 book goal. So I definitely can see that.
Brandon: It’s crazy how much social media’s changing the way habits are. FitBit is a perfect example, it’s meant for a competitive, social experience, right? So I walk 10,000 steps a day, that would be my goal personally. But if I see Tyler over here at 15,000, I’m like Whoa! I need to step it up a little! It sort of builds that competition. Similarly, on Facebook or LinkedIn—not so much LinkedIn—Instagram, people are always posting pictures of what they’re eating or exercise, and you know, if you look at that enough, you sort of feel like, Ahh, I could be doing more! Every day I should be getting up and eating right, exercising. When we go back to the Foundation, which is one of the Pillars of Habits, I think the social things, sort of Accountability plus the Foundation, I think those things can tie together.
Tyler: I agree, I agree. I think there’s subtle motivators. Within social media you see people doing certain things, exercising—you’ve got people posting their routes from their FitBits and saying So-and-so walked eight miles. And you say Wow, that’s really good! And she did that in an hour, what am I doing right now? It’s those subtle motivators, like, Maybe I’m going to start walking.
Brandon: So, Tyler, in this discussion, in our book club discussion, did it help change your mind about whether or not this book was one of your favorites? At least for this year?
Tyler: I would say that from the discussion and our discussion now, I can definitely understand why people enjoyed it and why people liked it. I still wouldn’t put it in my top five for the year, but it could grow on me later on.
Tyler Meuwissen - 3Brandon: To give people insight, Tyler loves the philosophical or historical fiction.
Tyler: Yeah, I’m a fan of that!
Brandon: This is maybe a little outside of that, but either way I do appreciate the dialogue, it was a lot of fun. Humor me – rating out of five, what would you give it?
Tyler: Out of five? I’ll give it a growing three maybe.
Brandon: I like it. Good enough for me! For those that listened, we really appreciate the download today. If you want to connect with Tyler, where can we find you?
Tyler: So I’m on Twitter. It’s @Mayvesin.
Brandon: What about LinkedIn?
Tyler: I’m on LinkedIn as well.
Brandon: Sweet! That’s Tyler Meuwissen, and I’m Brandon Laws, you can reach me on Twitter @BrandonLaws and also on LinkedIn. I’d be happy to connect with you. And then the website is www.xeniumhr.com. You can find all our podcasts there, we have tons of articles, whitepapers, and no shortage of other educational content. Again, we appreciate you listening and we’ll talk to you next time.