The following transcript is from an interview between Brandon Laws and Lacey Halpern on the podcast episode entitled: “Being Authentic, Giving Negative Feedback and Managing Performance”
Brandon: Hey everybody, we are back for another podcast episode. I’m your host, Brandon Laws, and with me again is a returning guest, Lacey Halpern. She’s an HR Business Partner at Xenium. Welcome, Lacey!
Lacey: Thanks Brandon!
Brandon: Today we’re going to be talking about employee engagement and the things managers can do, such as giving feedback, to really get their employees engaged. I’ll kick things off with a statistic and then let Lacey respond to it.
There’s a statistic that’s pretty well known about employees who receive predominantly negative feedback are over 20 times more likely to be engaged than those receiving little or no feedback. To me, when I first heard that statistic, and I’ve heard it several times, I thought, how could that even be? How could you be more engaged with negative feedback? Lacey, what is the response from most employees?
Lacey: This statistic came from a Gallup study taken from over 1000 U.S.-based employees to look at the impact of different kinds of feedback. The survey actually asked each worker to rate their manager on whether they focused on the employee’s strengths (or other positive characteristics) or whether they focused on their weaknesses.
Respondents were really clear in their feedback in the survey and stated that they were more engaged in their work—the projects the companies were offering, the services that those companies provided to the general public—when they were getting some type of feedback. Even when this feedback is negative, there seems to be a correlation to the level that an employee is engaged in the work that they’re doing versus somebody who’s not really hearing at all from their manager.
Brandon: The skeptic in me always pulls out the word “correlation.” That just means that two things are going in the same direction; but is there a causation, meaning that regardless of what kind of feedback, positive, negative, or whatever it is, does that mean that they’re engaged because of that? Or does it just mean that those two things can be related to some extent, but some other factors are having an effect as well?
Lacey: I think it’s probably both. I think that there are probably other factors that contribute to employees’ engagement.
Brandon: Culture and those sorts of things.
Lacey: Exactly, yes. You could argue that the number of benefits a company offers contributes to their engagement. You could probably argue that a manager’s style—the way that they give feedback—probably has some correlation. But managers that gave little or no feedback to the employees that were in this 1000-person study failed to engage 98% of them. That’s a pretty high number.
Brandon: That’s a huge number.
Lacey: So, if you think about it, if my manager is talking to me about how I’m doing, even if it’s negative, even if it’s constructive feedback, that’s telling the employee that one, the manager is taking the time to observe their performance, and two, it takes time to give feedback. If I’m a manager and I’m sitting down with my employee and having a conversation, even if it’s difficult, even if it’s constructive, even if we’re maybe putting together some type of performance improvement plan, I’ve taken the time to think about it in advance. I’ve observed their behavior, and am having a conversation with the employee about it, which tells the employee that I’m invested in them, which means that the company’s invested in them. And according to this study as well as what I’ve seen in the work that I’ve done with my clients is that the employee will be more engaged in their work as a result.
Brandon: Let’s take a turn and look at it from an employee’s perspective. When they’re getting feedback or they’re not getting feedback, what do you think is going through an employee’s head? I know what my reactions would be if I’m getting no feedback or if I’m getting positive and negative feedback.
Lacey: I think an employee who’s getting feedback, whether it’s positive or constructive, I think from the employee’s perspective, they’re thinking, the company cares about me, the company’s invested in me, the company wants me to be successful. The goal of giving constructive feedback is to correct behavior. We’re not, ideally, having conversations with employees to make them feel bad or to belittle them. The goal is to improve performance, which will in turn improve the company. So if my manager is having conversations with me, I feel like the company’s invested in me. They care about me. They want me to be successful. I’m an asset, I’m valued.
If I’m not hearing from my manager, I might be thinking that my manager doesn’t have time for me, I’m not of value, I don’t know where I fit into the big picture. So when we’re giving employees feedback, there’s an opportunity to explain how their behavior impacts the bottom line, how it impacts the company’s customers. When I’m not hearing from the company, I’m wondering, right? I might make a story up in my head about how I fit into the big picture, that I’m not important, that my behavior doesn’t actually have an impact on the business when it’s actually the exact opposite. But if I’m not hearing that, I have a different idea of what’s going on.
Brandon: But do you think timing plays a huge factor in feedback? Here’s an example: Suzi Alligood and I, we did a podcast on performance management a while back, one of
the biggest take-aways for me from that discussion was that performance management is an ongoing thing. It’s not a once-a-year review where you just dump all the feedback, whether positive or negative. It’s an ongoing thing, you should be doing it all the time.
So, case in point, if I as an employee do an excellent job, how important is it for a manager or leader to recognize it right away?
Lacey: Absolutely, it’s super important. My degree is actually in Psychology, and there are studies where they’ve actually looked at rats and dogs and found that some of their behaviors can be repeated if there’s a positive reinforcement right afterward. There have been studies where different animals have been rewarded with treats for ringing a bell, for performing certain acts, for getting through a maze—things like that. And it’s because they were immediately rewarded.
If you think about children, and you’re trying to get them to behave a certain way, there are statistics that show that negative reinforcement—punishment—is not actually as effective as positive reinforcement. So if an employee shows up to work on time and they do that consistently, acknowledge them for that. If an employee does a great job with customer service and you’re getting customer feedback, well, that feedback does not always go directly to the employees, so it’s the manager’s job and their opportunity to share some of that feedback with the employees to reinforce that behavior. If all we do is criticize, if all we do is sit down and have conversations with employees when they’re not doing a good job, we’re not going to be as effective in keeping good behavior going.
Brandon: I love the point you make about rewarding, because I’ve definitely heard about that in psychology classes back in the day. And it makes sense in practice.
There does come a time when you have to give tough and negative feedback, and that can’t go without being said. What are some ways that you can actually do this without coming across too brash and unfair?
Lacey: I think that it’s best when supervisors speak to specific behaviors objectively, versus stating their opinion of the way you look when you come to work.
A good example is of a company with a dress code policy. If a supervisor sits down and has a conversation with an employee and speaks about the supervisor’s likes and dislikes about how that employee is fitting into that dress code policy, it may not be as effective as it would if the manager speaks to a particular policy or to specific behaviors. They could say, for example, “When you wear shoes that can slip on the floor, there’s an impact to your safety and the safety of other employees, and that’s why in our policy we have a requirement that our employees wear non-slip shoes to work. There’s also an impact on our customers when you’re not wearing black shoes. We want all our employees to look consistent in what they’re wearing to work.”
That’s a simple example of something that wouldn’t be so tough to have a conversation about. I think it’s really important for us to speak to specific behaviors and tie it to the impact on the business, which helps the employee understand how they fit in. Maybe they’re feeling like they’re a small fish in a big pond and their behavior doesn’t really have a big impact on the business when really it does, and those little things add up.
Brandon: Absolutely. A few months ago, you and I did a podcast on corrective action and performance improvement plans. To me, that’s for when the feedback isn’t hitting home with the employee. So how can you give negative feedback that’s constructive and would be effective so it wouldn’t get to the point where you need to correct a behavior?
Lacey: Right. I think that it can be a style thing for the manager or supervisor training on how to give feedback is important. Having newer supervisors or leads watch other managers give feedback, and then have dialogue afterward about what went well in that situation and what didn’t go well, having someone shadow with a new supervisor can be effective. I think if we really focus on specific behaviors and impact, such as explaining the ‘why.’ Employees want to know why—why do I have to do it this way? Why is it important that we follow this policy?
Brandon: That’s a great point.
Lacey: I think it can be easier to shift behavior this way. And also, documentation is important. It’s important to help memorialize the conversation. If we end up down the road and we end up at a place where performance hasn’t shifted and maybe the employee is no longer a fit for the position, it’s important to be able to tell the story of what kinds of conversations have we been having over this lifetime of this employee being at our business.
Brandon: Let’s expand on that a little bit. What are some types of feedback that you think are worth sharing with an employee, or even a coworker?
Lacey: I think that if there is performance or behavior that your coworkers or direct reports—or maybe even your manager, though it can be tough to give someone who you report to direct feedback—has an impact on your ability to do your job, or if you hear from customers that they have concerns, if the product isn’t getting made to certain specifications, if you are in a manufacturing or perhaps distribution facility, it’s important to share that with the employee. Keeping a journal or making a list of all the things the employee does wrong and then, like you said, dumping it on them during their performance review is not effective. It can be hard and challenging to be authentic with people, but we’re doing the folks around us a disservice when we’re not honest with them about the impact of their behavior on us.
Brandon: I’m so glad you said that, because I was going to ask you about authenticity and how important it is for feedback to be very authentic, and that there’s a right way and a wrong way to provide feedback, so I appreciate you shedding some light on that.
What are some ways to share positive or negative feedback? I’ll give you an example: there are some times when I may give positive feedback to somebody, and I may do it in public, because I want everyone to know what a great job they did on something so others recognize it. That said, you turn it to the negative side, I would never give negative feedback to somebody in public that’s embarrassing. What is your overall perspective on how you give feedback, though I’m sure it’s different in every case?
Lacey: Let’s talk first about the positive feedback. I think, if you’re a supervisor and you have an opportunity to acknowledge someone in front of their team, in front of a customer, in front of the entire company even, I think it’s great. I do think that there are folks, though, who might be embarrassed by that, so I am a big fan of asking employees how they prefer to be acknowledged. Everyone responds differently to feedback, so some people like written acknowledgements in an email or card. Other people like public feedback. Getting a sense for the people around you and how they appreciate getting feedback, that’s a great place to start.
As far as the negative or constructive feedback, I think in the moment is important, and what that means is that sometimes there may be people around. So if you’re training a new employee or you’ve got an employee that’s been with you for several years and there’s a problem, coaching in the moment can be really effective. We just have to be really mindful of who’s around. We want to help the employee feel supported, not embarrassed, and not called out in front of their peers, but we also want to correct them right there in the moment.
I think it’s a balance. When you can give negative feedback privately, in a place where the employee feels comfortable, maybe with a witness there if it’s really a serious conversation, I think that can be effective.
Brandon: Thinking back, and I’m sure you’ve had instances where you’ve changed, and you probably have some tips on how to give feedback. Regarding the negative feedback, my wife worked with kids for quite a while, and she’d always tell me about when she’d try to correct their behavior. They were so young, so they were doing things wrong all the time. She would always tell me that she’d give them some sort of positive feedback first, such as, “Johnny, you’re doing such a great job, you did that just perfectly. Maybe next time, try doing this.” So it was kind of a way of bringing in the positive and negative together. I don’t know if that’s the right way to go about it, it seems like it would be a great way to kind of soften the blow a bit, but they’d also be open to changing their behaviors for next time.
Lacey: Yes, I think that that could be a really good approach. I think you could also include in that conversation a question of how you could support the employee in correcting that behavior. Are there things that the company could do differently, are there structures of support that we could put into place to help this behavior change for you or to help improve your sales numbers or whatever it is that is the issue? Asking how we can support the employee helps the employee feel even more engaged. They think, first, the company cares about me enough to even tell me that I have a problem, and second, to help me come up with a plan to make this get better.
Brandon: You bring up a good point, because if they just give negative feedback, as an employee you’d think that your job is on the line. But if they provide resources and tools to help the employee overcome that challenge, then they probably wouldn’t feel the same way. They’d think “Wow, the company cares about me and wants me to succeed.” And you’re right—then they’d be engaged.
Lacey: Yes. You want to create a system that helps the employee be successful. Writing employees up, putting employees on performance improvement plans isn’t going to correct behavior if the manager isn’t willing to roll up their sleeves and help to get some of that work done too.
Brandon: Earlier we talked about authenticity. I think I’m pretty authentic and open with people, but do you think there’s ever a time when might you choose to not be as authentic as you normally would be? Can you think of anything, maybe a strain in a relationship or some sort of situation?
Lacey: I think in a supervisor-employee relationship something that is really important is boundaries. So making sure that you are authentic as far as giving open, honest, and timely feedback is important. But there’s also a place to maybe hold back on some of the more personal things if it could jeopardize that clear boundary that a supervisor and an employee might have.
Brandon: As it relates to employees and managers, or employees and leaders, when do you think it’s appropriate for employees to give feedback to managers and leaders?
Lacey: I think it’s always appropriate for employees to give feedback. I don’t know that employees always feel comfortable to do that, and that really comes down to how the relationship is teed up between the employee and the manager, and how are we as a company? Do we have a transparent culture, do we have a place where it is safe for employees to give feedback? What avenues do we have for that, have we clearly communicated to our employees how they can give us feedback?
I’ve worked for supervisors before where it was really uncomfortable to give feedback. I can speak about the culture that we have at Xenium, and it is a place where feedback is encouraged, and we want people to get timely, authentic, direct feedback; it’s part of our Xenium Promise. It’s extremely important to me.
Brene Brown is somebody that I follow really closely. In her book, The Gifts of Imperfection, she talks a lot about authenticity and how it really is the key to building intimate and close relationships. I think it’s something that we can really take into the workplace. When we have solid relationships with our coworkers, we see that productivity increases, customer satisfaction increases, employees are happier—which also creates more engaged employees. So it’s this circle: if we can help employees feel like they can be more authentic at work, even though it can be uncomfortable, even though it makes people feel vulnerable and maybe exposed to share their weaknesses or maybe point out some of the issues that the manager or even the company as a whole or a system that’s not working, we can create more engaged employees, absolutely.
Brandon: I’ll second your point on Brene Brown’s work. Great books, and I think they’re great not only on the personal side but in the workplace as well. So if you’re thinking that maybe it wouldn’t be great for your workplace, I think, and I’m sure Lacey would agree with me, that it’s a great book for other in the organization to read and to talk about. Open and authentic communication as part of the culture is so important, and Lacey, I think you really hit it on the head with the culture piece.
Now, a culture may be a certain way where it’s open and authentic and everyone is willing to give and accept feedback, but what about when you take it outside of the workplace, when you are working with clients or interacting with friends or family and everybody has different methods of giving feedback or receiving it? What do you think, as it relates to that?
Lacey: I think it really comes down to you personally. I make a commitment every day to be authentic. My friends know that, my family knows that, my coworkers know that.
Brandon: So it really goes back to your values, and what you believe as a person.
Lacey: Absolutely! Brene says in her book, “Authenticity is a collection of choices that we have to make every day. It’s about the choice to show up and be real. The choice to be honest. The choice to let our true selves be seen.” And that’s hard! It takes diligence. Even choosing not to be authentic and then thinking, you know what, if I was more authentic in that conversation it would’ve gone differently, so I’m going to go back and have another conversation with that person. Which requires being vulnerable, because we’re admitting that we maybe didn’t adhere to the values that are really important to us.
We can’t measure how effective those open, honest conversations are by the way the person reacts. I think what sometimes holds people back from giving honest feedback is their fear of the reaction, such as “I don’t want to tell my employee they’re not doing a good job because I want my employee to like me or I don’t want to hurt their feelings.” The measurement of the reaction isn’t actually a measure of how effective the feedback is, which is something I’ve learned over the years. I’m now committed to giving authentic feedback regardless of how that person reacts. And I’ll shift my style and adapt as I need to, because I’m working with all different kinds of people—my friends are all different, my coworkers are all different. But I am who I am, and I’m going to stand true to the fact that I think I do a disservice to people when I’m not honest with them.
Brandon: Let’s give our listeners some tips and resources, because I think this topic in particular is such a big topic. And there are always things you can do to improve a culture. What are some things that you’ve read or watched or listened to that you think would be a great support to this conversation that we’ve had here today.
Lacey: I think the book I mentioned earlier, The Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown is an excellent place to start. She also has a book called Daring Greatly.
Brandon: I’ve read that one, that’s a great book.
Lacey: It is. And any of her TED Talks are great, she talks a lot about vulnerability and the impact that that can have on relationship, which is important in the workplace. We try to keep relationships out of the workplace, I think too often sometimes, when relationships can really create active employees who are engaged in the work that they’re doing.
Brandon: Our guest today has been Lacey Halpern of Xenium, thank you for joining the podcast once again. I’m sure we’ll have you back in a couple of months.
Lacey: Absolutely!
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