Resilience, stamina, a determination to continue on against all odds – we’ve all heard how important this is to achieving our goals, whether personal or professional. But how do we do it? Is the ability to persevere, is grit, innate? Can we grow and develop it in ourselves? How do we establish and structure our goals? Tyler Meuwissen, Xenium’s Compensation & HR Analyst, returns to join Brandon Laws in a discussion of Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth and share their personal experiences of grit.
Give us a review on iTunes and be entered to win a free book and/or
take our survey and be entered to win a free book!
Brandon: Welcome to the Human Resources for Small Business podcast. This is your host Brandon Laws; today I’m with Tyler Meuwissen.
Tyler: Yes!
Brandon: And what does that mean Tyler?
Tyler: That we’re doing a book club discussion!
Brandon: If you haven’t listened to the podcasts Tyler has been on, we always discuss the books that we are reading for the Xenium book club and usually we do it on the heels of the group discussion. This time we had, I think, 12-15 people read Grit by Angela Duckworth. The full title is Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, and the author is Angela Duckworth; very smart, has a Ph.D. and all those other accolades as well. A very scientific book but very easy to read. We had 12-15 people sit around the table and discuss Grit and how gritty they are and whatnot. So Tyler, define grit in your own words for me because I think everybody has a different definition.
Tyler: I kind of think back to that John Wayne movie “True Grit.” To me it’s commitment and like the title, perseverance. It’s pushing through all kinds of obstacles or challenges. I always like the phrase when the going gets tough, the tough get going. It’s kind of just having that mentality to be committed to what your goals are, what your passions are, and pushing through any obstacles in your way. That’s grit to me.
Brandon: I posed that same question early on in the book club discussion and we all had different answers, but I think one thing that came out of it that I hadn’t really thought of—and it relates very much to perseverance—to be gritty you must have fallen down at one point, in a way, to know you’re gritty or to be self-aware that you have the grit factor. If you’ve fallen down and got back up harder and faster and you wanted it more, that’s where the passion comes into the title. You had to be at the bottom before you rose up.
Tyler: Yeah. I think everybody has struggles in their life; it builds character. You can use that to become grittier, develop yourself, and I think that’s kind of why the grittier a person is, they tend to be older, to be more mature and have been through life, experienced life. So you’ve had those fall down moments where you see whether you will be able to pick yourself up and go about what you were trying to accomplish before.
Brandon: On that note, you just talked about people who are maybe a little older in their life, in their career and whatnot. Angela Duckworth had a page that contained a graph. Do you remember this? It actually showed the grit scale by score, by age. And the younger folks, I want to say 18-25 and then 26-35 and it goes on from there, there’s this positive linear progression up until you’re the grittiest when you’re age 55 and older. Is that because you’ve gone through those challenging life experiences and you had to want it enough that you pushed through it and the experiences sort of help you develop grit?
Tyler: Yeah. In an HR kind of atmosphere it is usually that experience versus degree or education, that experience versus talent. Which one is more important? I think they are both very valid and they are both important but I think experience lends to more character development, more who am I type of person, not which you know, not what you’re capable of doing, but who am I internally? Am I able to overcome certain things? Am I able to have the mindset to tackle goals and tackle problems? I think as you get older, you experience more.Brandon: She has this quote that I loved. She says “Our potential is the one thing, what we do with it is quite another.” I was an athlete back in the day and I remember when I was playing baseball I was pretty good and the coaches told me so. And I remember kind of feeling at the moment like, this is great, the potential is great. But I could have gone two ways with that. I could have gone like, I’m going to work harder and faster and there will be tough times, but in my development I’m going to rise up to the top. Or, what I think is happening now, everybody gets a trophy, everybody is getting accolades when they haven’t really gone through it and deserved it. I’m curious what you think about that.
Tyler: In the book she brings up a point about parenting styles and coaching styles. Are you supportive and loving or are you more of a harder disciplinarian, saying hey, get better! She brings up the example of Steve Young when his dad would tell him, I don’t live with quitters, which struck me as very polarizing, but it’s true because he’s not a quitter. So I think that the culture nowadays is to really nurture kids to the point where it actually might be detrimental, in my opinion at least, because they need those experiences, they need that drive to say hey, you know, you’re great, you’re talented, but you could be better, you could be better. I think everybody can be better at something, so that’s my take on that.
Brandon: She talked about the combination of IQ and EQ. Talk to me about why just having aptitude isn’t necessarily a sign of achievement.
Tyler: It goes back to your quote about your potential. You could be the smartest person in your class, you could also be lazy, you could also not have that drive, you could also take those things for granted and be completely all in your own mind, your own universe. You’re just one person. You definitely need intelligence and talent to get places but that’s not the only factor that goes into accomplishments. You’ve got the drive, the perseverance, there’s that grit score.
Brandon: Why, Tyler, do we put so much emphasis on the aptitude and the IQ? I mean I, even personally, get wowed by people who are smart. And I have no idea if they have the drive and the passion on the other side of the spectrum, but I am so wowed and taken aback by people who are intelligent. I mean, you’re one of those people who knows so much about so many different things and a lot of time I’m wowed by you having all these facts. You’re like a human google machine sometimes! But there are other people in my life who are so good at mathematics, they’re so good at science, and they just blow my mind. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to have success and I’m just curious what you think of us just putting emphasis on the IQ part of it.
Tyler: Yeah I think we’re born out of that culture of intelligence is everything, you know, that’s how you got places. If you’re intelligent, you go to a good school, you get a good job and then your life is set from there forward. It’s been ingrained for so long, especially in American culture, it’s part of the way of life. It’s about being intelligent, studying, becoming more educated and getting a better job and moving forward. It’s talent and it’s that cultural style of overcoming challenges and obstacles and difficulties.
Brandon: It’s funny because Angela Duckworth, the author, even said that during her research for this book, and maybe this book hadn’t even become what it has become, but she said that during the research part of it, she was “distracted by talent.” She was distracted by those that were talented. She said, Okay, talent equals success and that’s according to her research and what she says in the book that that’s not true at all. She actually has this cool formula. She says that talent x effort = skill. Which is funny because we think of the skill as the first thing then the talent like if you’re either just talented, you can develop a skill, but she’s saying that talent and the effort can equal a new skill which is interesting. And then the skill x effort = achievement. So isn’t that kind of funny how that progression goes? Like okay, you could have the talent, but without the effort you’re not going to develop the skill for something in particular. And then if you don’t have the skill and you don’t put in the effort then you’re not going to have achievement and that’s what her formula shows.
Tyler: I think there are outliers too, but it really goes into the competitive atmosphere with athletics. It draws my attention back to that. You’ve got these athletes who are, a lot of them are naturally talented, you know. They are naturally capable of doing certain things. But the great ones, the ones that excel at a higher level, they put the effort in there and then they develop that, they refine that.
Brandon: That’s a really cool point that when you develop that skill you’re always going to be at a different level. Say I’m talented in one particular area and I put in a lot of effort, then I’m going to be greatly skilled versus somebody who maybe isn’t as talented, puts the equal amount of effort. They’re still going to have some skill, but if they put in additional effort with that skill, could that equal achievement? I think it’s just going to be at different levels.
Tyler: Yeah. I think it varies, but with the Steve Young example, he was the eighth string quarterback. Those were all talented quarterbacks, all talented quarterbacks in the team. But through effort and through perseverance and extreme trying and overcoming those obstacles he was able to achieve great success later in life. It made him one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time.Brandon: How do you think an individual like ourselves we can determine how gritty we are according to Angela Duckworth’s definition?
Tyler: I mean determine like on a scale, like we could do the scale test?
Brandon: She has it in the book; how gritty were you?
Tyler: I was actually surprisingly pretty low, but she did mention though, but I do agree with that, I think. She mentions in the book that oftentimes how we see ourselves in that moment affects the grit score. So if you take it at a time when you have a lot going on and your perception of yourself is not as high as it could be then your grit score might be low. So I scored a bit low but I’m definitely going to take that test again later on when I’m in a different mindset.
Brandon: These assessments are always a little bit challenging, it’s a ten question assessment and we always tend to have a higher perception of ourselves in certain areas.
Tyler: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Brandon: Or we’re hard on ourselves!
Tyler: Yeah, I was trying to look at it a little bit more on the surface, but as you mentioned, it’s a ten question assessment, I don’t know how much you can get out of that.
Brandon: It’s a cool snapshot.
Tyler: It’s a cool snapshot, it’s a cool thing to pass around and have coworkers or family members rate themselves, but I think there’s a lot more that goes into it. To me, your grit score is your passions and what you enjoy doing and how committed you are to staying true to those passions and if something comes along that throws you off kilter, if you’re able to right yourself and get back on track. How quickly are you able to do that or are you able to do that at all?
You mentioned passion and perseverance. It’s a combination of those and how committed you are to continue with what you enjoy doing. That’s your grit.
Brandon: Angela Duckworth spends some time with Pete Carroll, and many other people in her research. Pete came up with an example for how he sets goals and how he’s teaching his players, the Seattle Seahawks, and I thought it was pretty profound. He was talking about having a top-level goal, like you’d have one goal and that’s the one you are reaching for, and then you have mid-level goals that feed up to that top goal so if you accomplish these mid-level goals, you’re going to be one step closer to achieving your top goal. And then you have the low-level goals, all these little tactical goals that you’ve got to do to get to the mid-level goals which are part of your top-level goals. So I thought it was kind of a cool building block of goals, I mean it’s cumbersome obviously but, what do you think about that?
Tyler: I think in order to really develop grit you really have to have those stretch goals, those goals that are going to challenge you. Otherwise, to Pete Caroll’s point, he wants to put small goals first so you can work your way up to get to the stretch goals. So I think as long as you have that stretch goal at the end, that long term goal that’s going to challenge you both mentally and physically, I think that’s key. But I think his way of managing that to get to that long term goal is good, staggering it.
Brandon: I want your opinion on something. In terms of what you know about grit, in the way she describes it in this book, do you think grit is something you were born with or do you think it can be developed over time?
Tyler: You know, I like to think that grit can be developed. I like to think you’re not just automatically held to this one standard of you’re a low grit person, that’s the way you’re going to be for the rest of your life. I like to think that you have chances to improve and it’s all about your mindset and how you view challenges in your life. If you constantly view challenges as a cumbersome thing that you’re never going to get over, then yeah, your grit’s probably not going to change, you’re going to be that way. But if you have that sense of I can do this, I can overcome these things, then I think you have a better chance of developing your grit and increasing it. I don’t really think you are born with a certain grit number.
Brandon: At first, I thought that, honestly, but as I read through this, and I read Mindset by Carol Dweck and a couple other books, it reinforced the idea that if you have an awareness of where you’re at in any given moment, then you can make adjustments in your life to become more gritty and have a mindset to grow or whatever it is. So I tend to be on your side of the spectrum now after reading all those things. I think you can develop it. You just have to have an awareness and a passion for it.
Tyler: Yeah, I agree.
Brandon: Talk to me about how you can grow grit, how you can grow from an internal point of view.
Tyler: Well it’s practicing those things that you need to do, those skillsets, and continuing on with the interests and passions that you enjoy.
Brandon: I think that’s a good point. It’s funny because we always come back to that, and the subtitle of this book is The Power of Passion and Perseverance. If you’re going to say you’re gritty at something or not, it would probably be determined by how passionate you are about whatever it is. And you may be really passionate about x but about y you’re not so passionate, so maybe you’re not seen as gritty.Tyler: I agree. I think that when I look at it it’s, I think she mentions this in the book, that you kind of have to pick and choose and go forth with the interests and passions you have and eliminate those other things that you don’t really necessarily enjoy that can be hindering you from pursuing your passions. It’s difficult as a business perspective, it’s a little bit difficult because you may not be interested in everything that your job responsibilities are. But I think if you can focus in on certain passions and continue with those, work towards those, nurture those, I think you can fill up your grit, at least intrinsically.
Brandon: Talk about growing grit from the outside, and what I mean by this—she has a whole section on outside grit development—is parenting. You’re a parent, I’m a parent, and to me this part of the book was really important. Talk to me about parenting and what sort of style adjustments you’ve made according to what you’ve read in this book.
Tyler: I think it’s really taking a keen interest in your child’s interests and passions in life and supporting that so they can grow them on their own while you’re there to support them and to help nurture that as much as possible. But not to the point where you’re saying, you know, everything is going well, you’re just the greatest at this, you’re the greatest person at whatever interest you have. Having some criticism and saying hey you can get better, you can grow and develop this. So it’s nurturing to a point, but make sure you are loving and that atmosphere that you are really continuing on and treating their passions like your own. It’s kind of like adapting those passions.
Brandon: One of the things that stuck out to me in this section of the book was about getting children, or even yourself for that matter, to participate in things that would cultivate grit. An example, sports, band, music. Anything that you’re going to have to habitually practice, perfect your craft, and then a lot of times, because there’s some sort of outcome or purpose attached to these things, we have this unrelenting need to push through in bad times and in good times because we’re all about that end goal. Do you agree with that?
Tyler: Yeah. I mean I think pursuing extracurriculars in schooling is paramount. It’s sad to see in today’s culture that when they’re cutting funding, the first funding to get cut is usually extracurricular activities which also help enhance your students’ life. It’s not just about book and marks, it’s not just about understanding the history of the United States or the science of so and so. It’s actually having those social experiences, those experiences where they’re developing you at a more passionate, intrinsic level, like the arts, band or orchestra, playing sports—a variety of sports, not just the football ones that seem to get all the attention. Soccer, hockey, whatever. I think extracurriculars are key to promoting that more well-rounded individual.
Brandon: So for you, lessons learned in the book? Anything that stuck out to you?
Tyler: It’s just more of bringing awareness to my mentality of when I’m beset by a problem or obstacle, how I handle that especially when I’m doing things that I enjoy doing. How do I develop that grittier type of lifestyle? How do I start persevering through some of the challenges more? It kind of like helped me bring more awareness to it. So I think that’s what I took from the book.
Brandon: I agree. And for those listening, how I read this book, I read it when it first came out I think in May or June. Ironically right before that I had read Carol Dweck’s book Mindset and Angela Duckworth in Grit, she talks about that book all the time because the Mindset book inspired her possibly to write this and I think they just go nicely together. So that’s how I sort of read Grit. I already had that background on that, of Mindset and then I read Grit and it just was the perfect marriage of two books. So I really liked Grit a lot. I felt like it was a nice part 2 to Mindset and I’ve recommended it to people, I think people could learn a lot from it. Rating wise, what would you give it out of five?
Tyler: You know, I’d probably go with like a 3.5.
Brandon: That’s fair.
Tyler: I think that there were some things that I kind of already understood about myself so there weren’t any “aha” moment really. One thing I do enjoy is science, I do love statistics and I all that research and Angela Duckworth puts a lot in the book. So I mean there’s a lot of stuff that comes into making this grit and her research on it. So I did like that. It’s kind of a new take so that’s why I’d probably give it a 3.5, maybe a 4.
Brandon: Yeah. Actually I’m right with you on that. I wouldn’t give it a five because I don’t think it was mind blowing. And I watched her Ted Talk ahead of time, and I felt I got basically the gist of it. And the Ted Talk definitely has supporting material and a lot of cool data and charts and graphs that support that and kind of open your mind up to a lot of different things. But for that reason I felt like you could probably condense this into like a smaller book that’s why I’d probably give it a lesser score like a 4 instead of a 5. But overall, awesome book. I loved it and I highly recommend it to those listening.
Tyler: Definitely.
Brandon: Well awesome Tyler! Appreciate you coming onto the podcast. For those listening we would love to connect with you on LinkedIn. We’re getting a lot of great feedback from people reaching out to us so definitely keep doing that. I’m on LinkedIn, search me, I’m Brandon Laws and Tyler Meuwissen is on LinkedIn. We’re on twitter as well so interact with us and just let us know what you want to listen to. Feel free to give us feedback, we are open to anything because we want to make this better for you. So we appreciate you, the listener, and until next time, thanks Tyler!